Setting Some People Straight

2 Timothy 4:1-2,

1. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

It’s a sad fact that many saints float through their life in some fantastical la-la land where they think anything goes.

They are in fact, using their liberty as a “cloke of maliciousness” (1 Peter 2:16).

Now, I’m willing to be lenient and say that it’s usually done out of ignorance, mostly by new-ish converts who’ve had some semi-deep experiences with God and believe their level of enlightenment is all there is to spiritual things. This is sophomoric maturity at its best or worst, depending on how you look at it.

It’s not evil, per se, but it does need to be dealt with firmly.

What I’m getting at is the idea that one individual saint can act independently from, and autonomously outside of, the authority of the Body, delegated to it by the very Head, Jesus Christ.

You see this crop in the following (false) concepts and/or accusations:

  • Only God can judge me
  • Just live for God no matter what
  • Don’t let anyone focus on your sins or failures; you just focus on God and making it to heaven
  • Don’t let anyone point the finger at you
  • Forget the past and the guilt, just live for God today
  • And other such ideas common to the theme

These ideas are philosophical new-age traditions of men and have no place within Christianity.

How do I know? Simple. The Bible preaches against all of them.

Only God Can Judge Me

1 Peter 4:7,

7. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God…

The Church is the House of God (Ephesians 2:19, 1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Peter 2:5). Judgment begins here, with us. How so?

1 Corinthians 11:31-32,

31. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The fact of the matter is this: we are required by the Word to judge ourselves. Each one of us must make a moral inventory of our lives and, if necessary, with the Spirit’s help, find fault, repent of it, and commit ourselves to living free and above whatever moral failures were found.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5,

1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here, Paul, an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, plainly states that he has judged a particular matter in the Church, found the situation, and the person involved, to be wanting, and so, ordered that such a person must be ex-communicated from the Body.

But only God can judge me???

Wrong! The Body, in this case, the Corinthian assembly, obeyed Paul’s command to put away the “wicked person” (v. 13) as seen and proven by 2 Corinthians 2:9. The elders of the assembly, in one accord, came under the conviction that what their founding Apostle and Evangelist told them to do was right, which was this:

Acknowledge that the brother was in sin, confront him, call him out, make a public example by announcing the charges (by reading the letter Paul wrote to the church), and then, summarily passing judgment against the brother by removing him from fellowship, specifically by refusing him communion (1 Corinthians 6:7-11).

Here then is a perfect example of the Body judging one of its own, and it being totally acceptable to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Just Live For God No Matter What

This sound so promising, so spiritual. But take a step back and consider: what does “no matter what” really mean?

Sadly, for too many, “no matter what” means no matter the moral failings, the unrepentant sin, the lack of holiness, the disregard for sanctification, the desire to live a carnal life, the continued disobedience to the Word of Life, the habitual practice of works of the flesh, and on the list goes. But just keep living for God no matter what!

How about “repent or ye shall likewise perish” (Luke 13:3, 5)?

How about “be not high-minded, but fear” (Romans 11:20)?

How about “no flesh shall glory in His presence” (1 Corinthians 1:29)?

How about being “harmless and blameless, the sons of God, without rebuke…[shining] as lights in the world” (Philippians 2:15)?

How about “the very God of peace sanctify you wholly” (1 Thessalonians 5:23)?

Too many people of faith just think that living for God means dusting themselves off after every fall without so much as a confession, contrition, remorse, or repentance.

They just keep plugging away, completely deceived, thinking that there won’t be an accounting for what? That’s right, for those “…things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10). We are going to be judged, a trial by fire. Whatever is wood or stubble is going to get burned to ash.

Thus the importance of this verse:

1 Corinthians 10:12,

12. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Don’t Let Anyone Focus On Your Sins Or Failures; You Just Focus On God And Making It To Heaven

Philippians 3:14,

14. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

People read this verse and say “Amen”! See, I am supposed to just do exactly what you’re saying I’m not supposed to do.

How about some context, first?

Philippians 3:8-17

8. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10. That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11. If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Paul suffered the loss of all things. Have you? Paul counted everything he lost as dung so that he could win Christ. Do you? Paul sought the righteousness that comes through the faith of Christ, which is of God by faith. Do you? Paul desired to know the Lord in the fellowship of His sufferings, even to the point of being made conformable unto His death? When you say you’re just pressing toward the mark, do you desire to suffer, even if it’s onto death? Paul said that he was perfect, i.e. mature or complete, lacking nothing in his faith. Can you say the same of yourself? Paul walked by a particular rule, and had a certain mindset to see these things through, no matter the cost. How about you? Paul urged other saints to imitate him. Can you in all honesty, exhort and urge anyone to imitate you as a right, proper example of what it means to be a Christian?

Be honest and tally up your “no” answers. Still sure you can just ignore your sins and failures and keep on keeping on, all the way to heaven? Didn’t think so.

So, instead, take a long hard look at this verse:

Isaiah 58:1,

1. Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

People who live by this false concept don’t want anyone looking too deeply in the closets of their personal sin. You have to understand. This is all code for “you do you, I’ll do me, leave me alone, let me do what I want, I don’t have to be accountable to anyone, and the same to you, buddy”. In other words, permissiveness and compromise.

WE ARE OUR BROTHER”S KEEPERS! We are to protect one another’s souls.

1 John 2:10,

10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

If we love one another, we shouldn’t cause others to stumble. We should actively protect one another from things that might cause another saint to fall.

1 Corinthians 8:12,

12. …when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

I need you to get in my way if something I’m doing is harmful to the Body and might cause me to sin against the brethren, and so, also sin against Christ. And you need me to do the same for you. That’s what this blog entry is about. I’m trying to set some things straight, some things that have been crooked for far too long.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15,

14. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

We have the sovereign right to admonish each other, that is, we have the right, or rather, are commanded by an imperative statement, to warn and restrict one another, if a brother or sister is being disobedient to the Word.

Romans 15:14,

14. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

We are expected to be able, that is, have the ability to, admonish one another. A Body that cannot do this is weak and ineffective.

Don’t Let Anyone Point The Finger At You

2 Corinthians 1:23,

23. Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.

Here we see that Paul resisted the urge to go straight to Corinth when he received word of how bad things were there. So instead, he wrote them a letter in the hopes that much of what was wrong could be corrected and handled within the Body. But look at this:

2 Corinthians 13:1-2,

1. This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2. I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare…

At first, Paul withheld himself and didn’t travel to Corinth, hoping that the letter would be sufficient. And earlier in 2 Corinthians, Paul admitted that his letter to them did in fact, do much good (See 2 Corinthians 7). But now, at the end, Paul realizes he still has to travel to Corinth.

Why?

2 Corinthians 12:20-21,

20. For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21. And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

No matter how much good the first letter did, it didn’t solve everything. In fact, in the first letter, Paul warned them that he was eventually going to make his way to them. See here: 1 Corinthians 4:21,

21. What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

In 1 Corinthians, he was leaving it up to them as how things were going to be when he finally arrived. It completely depended on how the Corinthians received the letter, and specifically what they obeyed in order to make things right. They only got some of it fixed. So guess what?

Paul was now coming with a rod. He was not going to spare. He was going to throw down on that church with the authority granted to him by the Lord Jesus Christ. Names were going to be named. Sins were going to be exposed. Feelings were going to be hurt. Some were going to get the boot. In order words, the long, bony finger everyone hates was going to be stuck in the faces of some very stubborn, un-repentant sinners, and they weren’t going to like it. But guess what?

The Body was going to be saved!

Forget The Past And The Guilt, Just Live For God Today

This is all well and good, IF we are talking sins committed before conversion. But if we are talking habitual sin committed post-conversion, an altogether different tack needs to be taken.

James 4:8-10,

8. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Everyone wants the draw nigh to God experience. Everyone wants the He will lift you up experience. But tell habitual sinners that they need to cleanse themselves, that they need to purify themselves, that they need to afflict themselves and mourn and weep in sorrow for their spiritual condition, and suddenly they get all defensive and mad, like you’re judging them. No, friend, they are trying to keep you from going to hell lost.

If James was here now, and he had to confront you regarding habitual sin, and he used these exact same words, would you listen? If yes, then why not when average no-name saint does it? How come you think you can just live for God today as though the un-repentant, un-mourned for sins you’ve been committing have no bearing on your ability to live for God right here, right now?

Brother/sister/saint, you are deceived. Put your hands down. Let your knees hit the floor, beat your chest, lament, and plead for mercy. You aren’t fooling the Lord, nor His Body, just because you refuse to let anyone focus on your past and the guilt you ought to be feeling.

Jeremiah 3:12-14,

12. Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13. Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
14. Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you…

I hope you can hear and feel the plaintiveness in the Lord’s voice, calling you to repent, admit your sins, and get right with Him.

Conclusion

Isaiah 1:1-6,

1. The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3. The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4. Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5. Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

There is a lot of sickness in the Body of Christ. As a member of that Body, I, too, am sick. I am infected with my own law of sin. But I am trying to purge myself as much as I am able, so that I don’t contaminate my brothers or sisters. Nonetheless, my dear brothers and sisters, if you are not doing the same, whether you know, realize, or care, your law of sin is affecting the rest of the Body. You, yes YOU, are corrupting the Body of Christ, if you choose to live this way (See 1 Corinthians 3:17 for a terrifying wake-up call).

When the individual members don’t properly regard the Body of Christ, it causes many saints to become weak and sickly, even unto death (1 Corinthians 11:30). Such behavior profanes the community, and the communion of the saints in light. Such people, again, whether they know, realize, or care, are cancerous spots on the feast of charity we as believers are supposed to be able to enjoy (2 Peter 2:13 and Jude 1:12).

I’ve personally felt the weakening, sickening effects of such things for a long time. The Bible reads that the Lord Jesus Christ personally bore in His body the sins of us all (1 Peter 2:24). In Matthew 8:17 it reads that the Lord Jesus took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses (a fulfillment of the Isaiah 53 prophecy).

But what then of the Body of Christ? Does the Body, i.e. the Church, do the same as her Lord and Maker did?

Look what Paul wrote in Galatians 6:17,

17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Here, mark is stygma, from whence we get the word stigma and stigmata. I’m not going Catholic mystic. But consider. The stygma was a mark etched into, or even branded into the body, usually of soldiers or slaves, to show to whom they belonged, i.e. the mark/branding was a name.

In Paul’s own body, he carried with him such a branding. A thorn in the flesh, an infirmity, one brought about by constant persecution, stress, heartbreak, deprivation, and suffering for the sake of the Gospel.

Colossians 1:23-25,

23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God…

Some people are willingly suffering for the sake of the Body. They gladly welcome whatever afflictions are necessary so that the Church may continue to be grounded and settled in the truth, so she can hold fast to the hope of the Gospel. Paul was such a one. He put up with and went through so much for the sake of the family of God. He refused to let himself be exalted above measure. He willfully intended that the Body should always be paramount, behind only the Lord Jesus Christ in terms of pre-eminence. Paul suffered the loss of all things so the Body could triumph in glory at the Second Coming.

Many are the saints who are right now suffering physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually for the sake of the Body. They do so willingly, even rejoicing in the pain, so they too, like Paul, can fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in their flesh for His Body’s sake.

Shame, then, on the other members of the Church who live carelessly, relentlessly hurting such precious people, because they don’t know, don’t realize, or don’t care how much what they say, do, think, or feel affects the rest of the Body.

You and I are not islands. If you suffer, I suffer. If I suffer, you suffer, even if you don’t want to. If you poison yourself with sin and debauchery, I’m going to get sick and possibly die, too. And vice versa.

I leave with this: Romans 14:7,

7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.

If we are the Lord’s, then we are ALL of His Body. None of us can say I live only for me, or if I die, it only affects me. We rise or fall with each other. We go to heaven or hell together. How dare any of us ever think, “Sorry bro, sorry sis, you’re not worth my time and investment. I’m too busy pressing toward the mark”.

A long time ago, a very special, very meek, Christ-typifying man of God preferred to have his name blotted out of the Book of Life rather than see God cast His people aside and start over.

I wonder, does anyone feel the same way, anymore?

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~ by votivesoul on 10/17/2013.

17 Responses to “Setting Some People Straight”

  1. This should be bringing many comments. Its rare hearing this kind of message. I don’t feel quite so alone.

    • Hi, Michael. I don’t suppose I have a high readership. I usually post these on my Facebook page, and some comment there, but otherwise, your recent comments are the first comments in a long time.

      Nonetheless, I thank you for the sentiments. I agree there is a rarity to the idea that this stuff is actually in the Bible and is supposed to be a reality in the 21st Apostolic Church. Perhaps my church is one of the few?

      • So are you a Pastor? Or even a member of a New Testament Church? Forgive me but that is so rare I would like to hear about it!

      • I am not a pastor, or at least, don’t carry the title, or any other official title, for that matter, though I do shepherd people through discipleship, mentoring, and home Bible studies. I’m kind of a jack of all trades, I guess. Done a little of everything, a lot of a few things, and etc. I have held titles in the past, but don’t overly care for them. I am an elder in my church and a trusted leader/minister. I attend church here: http://www.rockofjesus.org.

        I would very much I say I am a member of a New Testament Church.

        My name is Aaron, by the way.

  2. Thanks for sharing Aaron. I live in Somerset Ky in the South Central part of the state. We came here 11 years ago from Dayton Ohio where I was an Elder in various groups for 13 years.

    I have been considered an “extremist” over the years. However I see it as just a desire to see the real New Testament Church restored. Since moving here we have found no fellowship and nothing close to what we are looking for in a Church.

    After reading the interesting link to your Church I looked up where Elkhorn Wis is located. To my surprise it is just a stones throw away from a town called Lyons.

    There is a Church there that is one of two Churches that I know of that has the same BASIC foundation beliefs as myself. It is called Spirit Of Truth Church the Pastor is Mark Nutting. Ever heard of it?

  3. I have heard of Spirit of Truth in Lyons. The pastor’s name is Mark Nutting. He was originally licensed with the UPCI and was a minister in a church called Parkway Apostolic in Oak Creek, WI, which is a southern suburb of Milwaukee. He came to Walworth County more than 20 years ago to start a work, and at first, all was going well.

    He was winning souls, people were receiving the Holy Spirit. It was great. In fact, the mother of the family that won me to the Lord was one of the first converts (she is the mother of our current pastor, Jeff Contreras).

    But things went down hill. I don’t know how long it took, or all the details, but eventually something about Calvinism and predestination caused issues, and he was eventually dis-fellowshipped from the UPCI (On their website, they have a page which says they deny the freedom of human will, thus making them, I suppose, Sovereign Determinists, which would exclude a human’s role in coming to faith, which ties right into Calvinism. Not sure how you feel about such a teaching, but I don’t agree.).

    Those souls he had won ended up stranded, realizing he had come into some kind of false doctrine, related, presumably, to the above. Parkway was the closest Apostolic church at the time, but was over an hour away, and not easily reached on a regular basis.

    After close to a dozen years, another man from the UPCI came to Walworth County from the Oconomowoc area to plant a church. He was the founding pastor of the church I now attend, and trained our current pastor (and the rest of us).

    Since then, several have left the Spirit of Truth assembly and have come to us. There has been a lot of fallout over things like spiritual abuse. There is a particular member of our assembly who is still dealing with some of the trauma. Whether or not the stories are true, I cannot say, since I wasn’t there, but I heard things like Mark Nutting making his church board kneel and bow before him in loyalty during a service, and other such things.

    As for now, I think it’s basically a dying assembly, or may have actually already faded away. I’ve driven past the building, and the sign still had service times, but otherwise, if anyone even goes, it’s probably only a handful of people, though that’s just a guess.

    My brother, who is also a pastor at our church, works with the son of someone who used to attend there, and has told me stories of talking to his co-workers during lunch about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Apparently this son just stares daggers at my brother whenever he witnesses to people about the Apostolic faith.

    As for us, we have been labeled extreme. Specifically, we’ve been accused of not having a shallow enough shallow end for people to jump into. But as you state, we merely want the very best God has for us, and are willing to go to whatever righteous lengths to see the Lord’s will done. Our chief feature, I suppose, is a hard line against sin. We are still a somewhat young church (just over 13 years this past September), and we are moving to become more Biblical in terms of organization and fellowship (home assemblies instead of a building, moving ever closer to a plurality of elders, for example), and are the first to admit that we aren’t perfect.

    But I’ve never found anything like our church any where else. After we married, my wife commented in surprise about how strict we are about enforcing church discipline and Biblical standards of holiness (she had never heard of a person getting ex-communicated for fornication, before, even though she knew it was Scriptural). What can I say, we just believe the Book!

    I wish you were closer. Maybe if a 10+ hour drive is possible, you could come for a visit?

    Peace and God bless.

  4. Hi Aaron,

    I met Mark Nutting 11 years ago. After finding his website I was amazed to see the doctrine he was teaching was the same as mine. I contacted him and a couple of weeks later he came down from Wis to meet me.

    Upon close examination from what we talked we agreed on the following beliefs not commonly held among Aposolics.

    Post trib rapture, soul sleep, the annihilation of the wicked. I do agree with him that we who are saved were predestined for it.

    The sticking point was that he holds the elect cannot be lost. In fairness he seems to teach that they will prove their election by overcoming sin in their lives. I on the other hand can see the truth of election but not the idea one who is elect could not be lost.

    I don’t remember hearing anyone so consistent (among Apostolics) to teach the overcoming life or what I would call entire sanctification.

    I would be surprised and disappointed to find that he made people bow before him as he seems to fear God more than most. I am not in close fellowship with him but still hold him in high regard.

    I would be interested in hearing your views on the distinctive teachings I mentioned that Mark and I agree on. Peace, Mike

    • Hi, Michael.

      I and my church are staunchly post-trib. There might be one or two who hold a different view, but if so, it’s not publicly known.

      Regarding soul sleep, my pastor has taught a form of it. He doesn’t seem overly committed to it, but does acknowledge it as being more likely the case. Personally, I haven’t taken a strong stance on the matter.

      My wife was taught soul sleep and annihilation of the wicked at the church she grew up in (Pentecostal Apostolic Church, Peshtigo, WI)

      http://www.pentecostalapostolicchurch.org/

      We have talked several different times, and I have argued against both, but don’t find myself firmly committed to either side. I lean toward not being in favor of soul sleep or annihilation of the wicked, but am open to being convinced otherwise.

      I don’t believe my church has an official position, though from preaching I’ve heard, comments made off-hand, and etc. I would feel comfortable in saying that my church leans toward non-annihilation.

      I and my church believe that the elect can absolutely be lost, should they walk away from the truth in rebellion to the will of God, which is quite possible, Scripturally speaking.

      We are very much in favor of overcoming and complete sanctification. The idea that we can just wallow under sin’s bondage as if the Holy Spirit doesn’t give us everything we need for life and holiness, is in our estimation, a false teaching inconsistent with Scripture.

      Yes, we are patient, especially with new converts who, as long as they keep striving, getting up if they fail, we know God will help them. But if and when someone quits, or doesn’t get with it after time and space to repent, they are usually confronted in love and exhorted and admonished to flee such lusts. If continued sinfulness is present, the confrontations become more frequent, exhortations and admonitions become reproof, then formal rebuke, then there’s the door. Some left before it came to this.

      This has happened more than once, unfortunately, and I can say with confidence, often being involved at this level, that people are given more than a fair opportunity to get their life right with God. Sometimes, we’ve perhaps been too patient. One particular situation was given close to two years, because there was much love and sincerity in so many ways, in the person’s heart. But when God began to speak to us of judgment against this person, there was nothing left to do but warn them sternly and urgently. When nothing changed and the warning went unheeded, they were ex-communicated.

  5. Im amazed to hear about your wifes Church. Are they (please Lord) post trib also? Ever hear of The Glorious Church web site with Elder Dave Huston in Carlise Pa? He is post trib, soul sleep, and annihilation. He does not emphasize it but is in the truth.

    http://gloriouschurch.ning.com/

  6. You said,

    We are still a somewhat young church (just over 13 years this past September), and we are moving to become more Biblical in terms of organization and fellowship (home assemblies instead of a building, moving ever closer to a plurality of elders, for example), and are the first to admit that we aren’t perfect.

    The link I sent concerning Dave Huston should be of interest. He is a UPC Pastor. They have been teaching Plural eldership for some years now. Most of his ministry has been geared toward that. There is much discussion and teaching about those issues.

  7. I asked my wife if her former church was post-trib. She doesn’t remember for sure, but knowing of herself that she has always been, she is pretty confident that her former pastor (who is also the current pastor), Dale Welch, must have been, else she wouldn’t have learned it.

    In regards to http://www.gloriouschurch.com, yes I have been aware of their site and have read many of their articles. It was from there that I was first introduced to the plurality of elders idea.

    I first heard of David Huston years ago when I bought a copy of his book “The Sons of Oil”. It’s probably my highest recommended Apostolic book. I learned a lot from it. Have you read it?

    • Hello, Michael. I asked my wife to reach out to Pastor Welch’s daughter, who was the maid of honor at our wedding, and she confirmed to my wife, who then confirmed to me, so that I can now confirm to you, that he believes and teaches post-trib, in addition to soul sleep and annihilation of the wicked.

    • Wow Im really blessed to hear of another Church with the same foundation! I also appreciate your Church being post trib that’s so important for end time vision.

      Yes we have Sons Of Oil. We spent the weekend at Daves house once years ago and got to know him a little bit. We attended their conference back in 2006 I think it was. They are forerunners as what I believe is the wave of the future.

      I also got to know Jim McKinley the co author of the Glorious Church. He and I ministered together on Paltalk for a while.

      When I get time Im thinking about calling Pastor Welch and seeing if hes aware of more Churches that teach this way. Thanks for the fellowship Aaron.

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Mark Showalter's Blog

Always seeking to know God more

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